Johnny B. Truant joins us to talk about his upcoming project, The Artisan Author, and how authors can thrive and become bulletproof in the age of over-production and AI.
Johnny B. Truant is one of indie publishing’s early authorities, having created and co-hosted the original Self Publishing Podcast with Sean Platt and David Wright. He is also the author of the indie cornerstone guide Write. Publish. Repeat, and hosted the Smarter Artist Summit author conference in Austin, Texas from 2015-2018 with the same two partners.
Johnny joins us to talk about his upcoming project, The Artisan Author, and how authors can thrive and become bulletproof in the age of over-production and AI.
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Kevin Tumlinson [00:00:02]:
You just tuned into the hippest way to start and grow your indie author career. Learn the ins, the outs and all the all arounds of self publishing with the team from D2D and their industry influencing guests. You're listening to Self Publishing Insiders with Draft2Digital.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:00:24]:
Hello and welcome to Self Publishing Insiders with Draft2Digital. I'm Mark Leslie Lefebvre and I am your host today. We've given Jim this week off. I'm actually doing double duty today because I am in Niagara Falls, Ontario at the Romance Writers of America. I guess North America at this point in time since they've crossed the border into Canada. And so if anyone's watching happening to be taking a break and is there we've got our table set up on Saturday. I'll be doing my presentation early on Friday morning all about the loveliness of drafted in digital.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:00:55]:
Come and say hi, I'd love to see you guys. But right now I'm in the virtual studio all the way from Texas, Austin, Texas. I have in the studio Johnny B. Truant, the artisan author guy.
Johnny B. Truant [00:01:08]:
I struggled over that last time I was on Streamyard which was probably the last time I was on D2D Insiders. It just had Cool Guy as my attribution.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:01:16]:
Cool Guy. Cool Guy.
Johnny B. Truant [00:01:17]:
Yeah.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:01:17]:
And that was two years ago. So two years ago we were talking and I think Kevin was probably the interview talking about book to TV awesomeness. Because amongst your history being one of the first self publishing podcast people with the self publishing podcast with Sean and Dave, you had a book that was adapted into a TV series. You want to share a little bit about that?
Johnny B. Truant [00:01:39]:
Yeah, that was Fat Vampire. I try not to overwhelm people with that because people get starstruck because I was, I was guy in window uncredited for like 5 seconds. So I don't want people to freak out about that. Like you know, people get uncomfortable around celebrities. But yes, in all seriousness, it was, it was, it was, it was very, very, very cool. And NBC Universal picked that up, Fat Vampire and turned the series into a TV show which they renamed Reginald the Vampire. And it was a sci fi show that is currently on Hulu in the us I don't know where it is in the Great White north up there.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:02:16]:
I can't remember where I watched it the first time around, but I think.
Johnny B. Truant [00:02:19]:
It was on Amazon for its first window. I think it was on Amazon.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:02:21]:
That's what it was. Probably am on prime is where I watched it the first season at least as well. But so we were Talking last time, two years ago, talking about that. But. But something has changed. There's been a paradigm shift for you. And I think it has something to do with that artist and author guy.
Johnny B. Truant [00:02:37]:
Yeah. I would say that it's embracing. I'm gonna think how to, how to phrase this. I wouldn't say that a lot has changed for me in mechanically. It's more like I accepted a change that was already there. I've kind of always operated this way. And I think that once I put a name to it and once I started thinking in the terms of like artisan authoring, then I was able to, to, to kind of like mentally for my own self say, okay, well I should lean more this way if it's an artist and authoring approach. But.
Johnny B. Truant [00:03:08]:
Because even with. And I know I'm jumping the gun a little bit here on. Because we haven't talked about what it is.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:03:13]:
There's no gun. You can jump wherever you want.
Johnny B. Truant [00:03:15]:
But. But my very first book with. With. So my very first book was called the Bialy Pimps, which is like, I call it like Clerks, the movie clerks in a college bagel deli. But then after that came Fat Vampire and Unicorn Western. Those were the next two. And those are like, I wouldn't, I'm hesitating to say high art or anything like that because it sounds funny, but they are artisan authoring in the. That they are not down the center of a genre.
Johnny B. Truant [00:03:40]:
Like, they don't. It's not something you write to market. Like I'm going to write about, you know, overweight vampires and guys who ride unicorns that shoot pink smoke. Like that's not something that you would do if you were trying to write to market and to do. To do the thing that, that most people do. So I, I have had the paradigm shift mentally and, and then kind of articulated it once I saw more people embracing it. When I talked about it, they were like, that's kind of cool.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:04:10]:
Yeah. And Elyssa, I'm just popping up comments if you have comments. If you have questions for Johnny, pop them in. We'll take, you know, be part of the conversation. But Elyssa said, I remember Unicorn Western.
Johnny B. Truant [00:04:22]:
Making the rounds genre when I tell people about. So I do a lot. Here's another Jumping the gun. The. I do a lot of in person selling just, just me. That's not something that I necessarily recommend for everybody but. But I really like it. And I've developed little taglines for a lot of the books, especially the popular ones, and, and kind of trying things out and See what working, what works.
Johnny B. Truant [00:04:42]:
And Unicorn Western, I always describe as. It's like if Stephen King was on acid when he wrote the Dark Tower. And there's like, one person who hasn't laughed at that and taken a second look after I've given that tagline.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:04:53]:
So I want to dig into this. I know this is going sideways, but I love the concept that you've got, like, a single tagline for a book. How do you approach that? Because, I mean, Unicorn Western has been out for a while. You didn't have that tagline right away, right?
Johnny B. Truant [00:05:07]:
No, I didn't. And I have to credit a reader for that. I really should know who it is. And I do say a reader described it as. That's usually what I. And I. Even though I just didn't.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:05:15]:
Was that from a review that you pulled it?
Johnny B. Truant [00:05:17]:
Yeah, it was in a review. And it. I'm paraphrasing, it was something like, if Stephen King took some LSD and dropped and like, some E when writing, it would be the Dark Tower would be the Unicorn Western. So I. I paraphrase. But that's the sort of thing. It is kind of funny because I'll listen to people like Todd Fahn, who has written about his selling in person, and he and others will say, develop a pitch for your books. And that's really good advice.
Johnny B. Truant [00:05:46]:
And that's kind of what I've ended up doing. But I couldn't do it first, which is what my brain said I was supposed to do. Like, come up with a pitch. That's the advice. Come up with a pitch, and then when you go out and use it. And instead what happened was I didn't come up with a pitch at all or taglines or anything. And I would just talk about the books, and I started to notice which things worked and which resonated. So one, that one that only works with people over about 35 is Gorepoint.
Johnny B. Truant [00:06:16]:
I say that's Backdraft with demons. And it's really buying when somebody's like, I have no idea what Backdraft is.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:06:23]:
What's Backdraft?
Johnny B. Truant [00:06:24]:
Yeah, 90s or Robot Proletariat was Downton Abbey with robots.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:06:31]:
Okay, well, that one's more.
Johnny B. Truant [00:06:32]:
Well, a little bit more universal. Like, people know it, but. But, you know, big credit to Sean on that because he didn't do the Dark Tower and LSD thing, but he always had a tagline. So I write most of my books in collaboration with Sean Platt, even more than I do. And so having that tagline, that zinger is a Great way for us to new know what those projects were. So when I was writing Robot Proletariat, which is a robot uprising book, it starts out in, like, their servants for like a wealthy family. And I was like, oh, I know exactly what to do with this, because we had decided it was Downton Abbey with robots.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:07:10]:
I love that. I love that. I'm going to jump ahead. So Beth, who's watching live, says, johnny, I'm in the middle of listening to the video on your Kickstarter page. So we're going to kind of jump ahead again and say we haven't even talked about the Artisan Author and what that is. But you said you're running a Kickstarter related to the Artisan Author.
Johnny B. Truant [00:07:28]:
I wrote a book called the Artist and Author. Do you want me to give the genesis of the books? I think it's kind of a. Yeah.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:07:33]:
Let'S, let's, let's go. Go back to that. We'll return to Beth's question in a second. But what is Johnny, what is the Artisan Author?
Johnny B. Truant [00:07:41]:
Well, so I'm going to explain what it is by telling you the little story of its genesis because I think this is maybe even more illustrative. So I was out of the speaking spotlight for a while. Like, I used to do a lot of cons and we had the self publishing podcast and we wrote Right. Publisher Pete. And so that, that author facing thing, I just kind of didn' do and I was just writing my books. And when I went back to the first conference in like five years, so much had changed. And the analogy that I usually use here is it was like, if I had a, if you, you're watching you live with a kid every day, and then one day you're, you know, you're gone for several months, you come back and you're like, oh my God, how big you've gotten, or whatever it is. So it felt like that.
Johnny B. Truant [00:08:23]:
So this was a world that I knew very well and I had gone to a lot of conferences, but until I went to that conference, it was like it didn't hit me in the face how much it changed and it had become much more. You know, I've really just, in the last, like, day, I've boiled down this, this. What has changed in, in a way that I wouldn't have thought of originally, but I think is maybe encapsulates the way I feel about it a lot is it used to be fun. That used to be the vibe. It used to be fun and exciting and exploratory. And freeing that those used to be all those positive emotions. And even though I love conferences and when I went back, I, it was cool to go to conference and I felt good being there. The mood was like almost a little more cutthroat or tactical or like scared.
Johnny B. Truant [00:09:10]:
People were scared about what was the future gonna hold. And AI was new and you had to go so much faster and you had to really be on top of like your ads and your, all this stuff that's like these, these tactics. And so when I saw that, and I imagine like this first writer, this new writer coming in, or somebody with one book, and they're like, I finally made my way to a conference. I'm going to sell my book, Unicorns, Rainbows. And then they run into that mood instead of the jubilant mood that we used to have.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:09:42]:
Right.
Johnny B. Truant [00:09:43]:
I just imagine like the unicorns running away, you know, and, and so that was where I came back the next year and had thought about it for a year. And that's when I gave this, this presentation called the Artisan Author. It was at Author Nation, the first year of Author Nation. And it was about this, like, what if we, what if we didn't have to do this crazy fast rapid release that had gotten faster and faster? What if you're not built for that? Because I know you have a question on this, but I did publish very quickly. But that's different from rapid release. Rapid release is an obligatory thing. It's like you have to, and you have to write a certain kind of book because you're basically writing for algorithm algorithms rather than for the people who those algorithms then turn around and serve. And if that's the case, if you're doing that, then it's just for somebody like me, for somebody who's a craft focused person who wants to have freedom in what they write and doesn't want to be required to go super fast.
Johnny B. Truant [00:10:45]:
Like, even when I was really, really producing, I might want to take a vacation, you know, something like that. And if you do that as a rapid releaser and you let too much time go between your releases, you're sunk. And so having all that, that, that agita and then giving this presentation on this, this alternate way of doing it, which uses a whole new paradigm that we can talk about, not new, different paradigm, then it's. I got so much love from that presentation. People were coming up for the rest of the conference, like, thank you, that I really needed to hear that. I didn't, I didn't realize that was an option. And that I decided to write the book. And so that's where the Artisan author book was born was from the response that I got to that presentation that I just felt that there was a need to not burn yourself out and to maybe enjoy writing again.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:11:36]:
For sure. For sure. I think that's so important. I mean and it. And what I love about this is you did this presentation at this conference and a conference where the genesis was very much a ebook specific Kindle specific rapid release, specific genesis. That's what it was born out of. And reminded them that there's no, no one way and that there is potentially other ways that you can do this that aren't going to kill you. Put you on a treadmill and run you till you die.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:12:10]:
Which is kind of what sometimes feels like for an author, right?
Johnny B. Truant [00:12:12]:
Oh yeah. Well I'm really glad you put it that way because the, the artist and author approach is if I need like a quick zinger on this, it's the opposite of rapid release. Like that's kind of what I say. But that doesn't mean that rapid release is bad. It does mean that it's probably bad for a lot more people than think that they have to do it though. I think that there's a small percentage of people relative to the entire population of writers for whom that's good. Like, like it's a good personality fit. It's a good like work fit.
Johnny B. Truant [00:12:43]:
They aren't going to burn themselves out. And then I think it's an even smaller percentage that actually are successful at it. Like in. And you see these like I see them all the time. These big six figure, like legitimate six figure authors, sometimes seven figure and above. And so it's really easy to look at that and go, wow, they're really succeeding. And then you go, okay, so how many is that? How many people are really talking about it? And is it 0.0001%? And yet it's advice that's given to everybody. And most writers are not going to produce a book a month and enjoy it and not be burned out.
Johnny B. Truant [00:13:16]:
You know, you listen to Becca Sime about burnout.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:13:18]:
Yeah.
Johnny B. Truant [00:13:19]:
And I think, man, it's not for everybody. And I just don't think you should default into it is all.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:13:25]:
No, for sure now I can think of because I look at the bestseller lists, indie author, bestseller list from Draft Digital every week and we run those reports and we provide them to Fable and Partners and stuff like that. I can think Juliet M. Banks is an author who's wide publishing and releasing very Regularly on a very regular system. She did build some assets up and then started this plan. She's loving it and doing well and doing it wide, not just exclusive. So it's almost like there's. That's one of the authors I can think of that is loving it and not exhausted as well because she's probably. Because she's writing the books that resonate with her.
Johnny B. Truant [00:14:06]:
Well. And then you get people like IN S. Johnson, who has two pen names and one is total rapid release Kindle. I mean, I don't want to speak for. Right. But I believe this is true. And then the other one is wide and, you know, a lot more artisan, so you can kind of, you know, you make your own fortune. But it's that one size fits all advice, especially for people who don't yet know the world of this publishing world.
Johnny B. Truant [00:14:30]:
And so they don't have a filter that says, hmm, that feels weird, but okay. I guess that's what I'm being told to do. I guess. I spent three years writing this book and it's got all of my heart in it. So now I need to write a book a month. Okay, I guess I'll find out a way. And then they end up in the hospital with burnout or something.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:14:49]:
So there's a question that Michael asks in the comments, says, what is the time frame for rapid release? And also potentially the genesis of where this comes from because it's very specific to one retailer mostly, right?
Johnny B. Truant [00:15:00]:
Yeah, it's pretty much Amazon. Amazon. So the timeframe to answer your question, Michael, is usually rapid release will say about a book a month. That's kind of the catchphrase. However, it's become a little bit more like three weeks recently. And what scares me about this is, okay, if you can write a book every three weeks and you're comfortable with that, okay. I mean, I don't want to do it, but okay. But I think that it's not going to stop there because the way that this got started is that Amazon is a very smart company in terms of knowing how to.
Johnny B. Truant [00:15:37]:
How to work their business. And when they realized that authors were willing to write more books, which meant more royalties and meant something like an exclusive program like Kindle Unlimited could work for them because they had a lot of stuff in there. When they realized that, they realized that authors were willing to write fast, they said, okay, well, we'll reward the people who are writing faster with more visibility and stuff. And when I started, and Amazon is just one of many options, and it was in the dinosaur Days before Kindle Unlimited was a gleam in Jeff Bezos's eye. Then, you know, we, they still talked about the 30 day cliff, although I think it might have been like 60 days back. And then like your title would kind of fall off. And so it makes sense. Amazon will continue to incentivize the people who are willing to play.
Johnny B. Truant [00:16:20]:
Okay, who's got the best deal. For me, I feel like it's almost like a carnival huckster. Who can make the best deal? Who can make the best deal. And so as long as people are willing to write faster and faster, I think it's going to continue. And normally you'd think you're going to hit a natural place where people, and Lexi says, starting to see the rat race. That's the way it feels to me is it's like a downward spiral. And, and when people are willing to go faster and faster, then they're going to, you know, you get trapped. And even the people who are successful, you know, Sean Platt and I and Dave to some extent, when he was willing to come out of his cave, when we would talk to people, we talked to a lot of authors and masterminds and our conference and stuff, and we ran into a lot of people who were very successful and they were, they were doing great in this, this kind of like pre.
Johnny B. Truant [00:17:08]:
Rapid release before it really had a name like that. But they called, we called it Golden Handcuffs because they hated their series and they couldn't, they had to continue it. They were like, I just want to write something else or I want to take a break. But they can't because then the whole thing falls apart.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:17:24]:
Oh, wow. Golden Handcuffs. Such a, such an apt term. So I started to ask this question and then I sidetracked myself. So the question was, you did this presentation at Author Nation.
Johnny B. Truant [00:17:38]:
Yeah.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:17:38]:
To an audience that had been conditioned or trained that there was a way to do it. And people came up and said, thank you, thank you, thank you. Yeah, I want to talk about. And then you said, oh, there's a, there's a real need in the community. I thought there was a need, but this is my confirmation. I want to compare how you did that and then said, okay, now I'm going to write this book, the Artisan Author. I want to compare that to the strategy and approach you've taken in terms of the log lines and the marketing. Because when you purchase an ad online to sell your books, mostly on Amazon, there's a different marketing in person that you can adapt.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:18:17]:
Can you talk a little bit about how that that works as an artisan author.
Johnny B. Truant [00:18:20]:
Yeah. And it's not just in person. So you said mostly advertising to Amazon. Now, interestingly, I haven't really cracked ads yet, but the ones that have been the most successful have been to my direct store. So not even to Amazon.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:18:35]:
Like Facebook ads. Going to your direct store.
Johnny B. Truant [00:18:36]:
To my direct store. Now, again, like, I'm so not an ad expert and I haven't, like I said, I haven't gotten profitable yet, but I've gotten close. And on a single title. Right. So if I had it here, I'd show you. I have it way over there.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:18:49]:
Is that the omnibus?
Johnny B. Truant [00:18:50]:
The Unicorn Western omnibus is what I was selling. And it's, it's 716 pages. I know because, like, I had to make it work. It's, it's this huge thing. And so I'm selling a paperback omnibus. And that was the ad that was most successful. So I think that that can be adapted. But the core of your question was about just a different kind of marketing.
Johnny B. Truant [00:19:10]:
One of the things I want to say in advance about all of this is every once in a while, like, because I've done a fair number of talking, a fair amount of talking about this and people will say, you know, the thing you've discovered or the thing that you've created or whatever, I didn't create anything. Right. Like, this is very, very 101. And it comes into the, it feeds into your question. Because the marketing that I'm doing, that, the like revolutionary. I'm putting it in square quotes in case you can't see it. The revolutionary way that I'm doing my marketing is really just very, very. It's common sense.
Johnny B. Truant [00:19:46]:
And the reason that it's no longer actual, literal common sense in the self publishing world is because we piled so much crap on top of it. And so I think this is much more about unlearning. So to get into like unlearn all of the tactics if you want to take this approach. Within reason. Right? Within reason. So the, the marketing that I found to be most effective and the approaches that I personally have found to be most effective are just. I could write it on the back of a napkin. It's like, write good stuff that you want to write.
Johnny B. Truant [00:20:21]:
Find people who like it and treat them like human beings and sell to them at a reasonable price for you and for them. And it's the same with the marketing. It's the same thing. It's like, you know, if I'm going to come up with an ad headline or more Relevantly, since it's actually works for me like an email headline or if I did social media, I would be doing this, which I don't do. Social media is just what, what. What would appeal to the person who would like my book? Like what. What do I think is funny? What do I think is interesting? It's like the Dark tower on LSD was one of my good headlines because the people. Is that going to resonate with everybody? No, but the.
Johnny B. Truant [00:21:03]:
The approach of the artist and author is a. Is not. Let me get everybody that I can. You aren't trying to cast a wide net. You're trying to carve out a very small fanship relative to the universe that everybody's trying to hit, usually in ebook sales.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:21:20]:
Well, I love that adaptability as well. That can exist there. Because again, you're focusing. I mean, this is focusing on the reader. I think you have something on your website, if I'm not mistaken, and there's a slogan or a log line on your website that says.
Johnny B. Truant [00:21:42]:
Is it. Is it? I'd rather make 10 true fans than sell 10,000 books or something.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:21:49]:
No, it was. No, but it was. It was. It was like that. But. But I. What I liked about it was smart books for smart readers. Your log line isn't about you.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:21:57]:
Your logline is about your readers. You're making them the hero.
Johnny B. Truant [00:22:03]:
I am picky about my readers. And I think that this is kind of an artisan approach. Approach as well, is I don't ever want to be a jerk about anything. I just. In the past, I didn't care as much when I was in Johnny 1.0. But it's true that there's a take it or leave it aspect. And I think that that's true of your marketing. I think it's true of your books.
Johnny B. Truant [00:22:25]:
I think it's true of your prices that I think that to some degree we've really been trained to just kind of like, kowtow as authors and be like, oh, will you please deign to read my book? I'm, you know, I'm sad and pathetic. What if I make it a dollar without some sort of a reason for it? As part of a larger marketing strategy, the idea of an everyday price for an ebook of 99 cents, I hate that. I think it's undignified, personally, because it just says that that's all I'm worth. Like, how long do people spend reading an average book? 8 to 10 to 15 hours, something like that. And that's a lot of time. And to charge them as Much as they would walk by on the street. Seems ridiculous. You know, how much are people paying for their latte every day? You know, Starbucks prices are through the roof.
Johnny B. Truant [00:23:19]:
My book is less than a latte at full price is like kind of ridiculous. I think I got off on a soapbox there. I don't remember what the actual.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:23:29]:
No, but that's important for authors to understand because again, I mean, authors like, well, who am I? And the imposter syndrome comes in. It's like, well, if I make it cheap, at least then maybe it'll be attractive.
Johnny B. Truant [00:23:39]:
I get it. And that's the idea between price pulsing and sales. And that's the kind of take a sample attitude. And I think that those things are fine because. Because again, like, if you can turn back the clock 20 years and say, would a version of this strategy worked back in the day? That's usually kind of my litmus. I think that, you know, there's like, it's, it's like that's the blue jeans of sales. Like genes don't go out of, of style in the way that things that are more current do. And so the idea of what was the specific example? I've, I've lost it in my, my circular thinking.
Johnny B. Truant [00:24:13]:
There was a specific example we were.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:24:16]:
Talking about of pricing.
Johnny B. Truant [00:24:18]:
It probably would have been really a really good point. I don't even remember if somebody remembers. Pop it up.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:24:23]:
But yeah, pop it up. I mean, come on. And the lovely thing about, about the live video is earlier David had asked a question. Is this a prerecorded? And I thought David was asking, can I watch this later? And so Lexi answered, no, it's live now. And I was like, well, yeah, you can watch it later on YouTube if you want. We both answered the. It's like the same question that we saw. We both interpreted differently.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:24:46]:
And so of course I'm going to throw questions out. You're going to be talking about stuff. We're going to. Especially you and I. We're. You and I. I think some of our personality traits are. We're just going to tangent off wherever we want to.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:24:58]:
Yeah, we're just going to ping pong here.
Johnny B. Truant [00:25:01]:
Yeah. So I don't, I don't remember what you were. What you were. I don't remember the specific point I was trying to make. But, but that whatever it was, it was, it was. The simpler is usually more sensible. And it's like when you start to look at a lot of tactical thinking, there's this kind of like, well, if I play this game Just right then maybe something will work out. And you kind of go, maybe that means that it doesn't have a lot of longevity.
Johnny B. Truant [00:25:23]:
So, yeah, whatever that example was, I'm sure it was brilliant.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:25:26]:
Well, and, and I wanted to, I wanted to come back to an example. I remember in a discussion you and I had had in the last few weeks or whatever, because we do regularly chat and I have. I'm one of the lucky folks who got to read the Artisan Author an early reader's copy because the book's not coming out till November. But.
Johnny B. Truant [00:25:45]:
Yeah, except for the Kickstarter people, obviously they'll get it earlier. But yes, the Official date is November 4th. Yeah.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:25:50]:
Okay. And we'll get into that in a second just to let people know if they're interested in checking it out early. But one of the things we talked about was you're not so much worried about making a sale. You're more worried about making a connection with, with that person that you're interacting with. Because you're doing a lot of in person events lately.
Johnny B. Truant [00:26:10]:
In person events, but also anything that comes via email. When I did, I know that there was another podcast and I was telling the anecdote about. Just this morning, you know, I got a. I had a reader email and it was from somebody who was true fan, definitely. And you know, I think I spent like 45 minutes answering that email. That's one email. Right. And I didn't have to leave my house to do it.
Johnny B. Truant [00:26:32]:
I didn't have to go interact and show my face. But, but there's this real temptation. Like there's an autoresponder. You said thank you very much for reading. But like, this is somebody who's a true fan. And so that quality over quantity in the connections is, number one, I find it very appealing. Number two, I find it very human. Like, I like being human.
Johnny B. Truant [00:26:51]:
I like leaning into being human. And number three, it's just, it's. It runs counter to what we've been taught, which is get as many eyes on our books as possible or as many readers for our books. And like, it's okay. You can let a lot of those people go. You can let a lot of people, you know, be alienated by what you do because it means that the people who, who do resonate with you resonate very strongly.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:27:17]:
Yeah. Yeah, I, I love that. And, and there was, I think, an anecdote of, of you going out of your way to go and meet up with some fans, not at an event where you're already going to be There. Yeah, not at a bookstore event, not at whatever. But you actually drove a pretty significant.
Johnny B. Truant [00:27:39]:
Distance just down, just downtown. But. But it was, it was, it was.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:27:43]:
Yeah, but in Austin at a certain time of day, that can take a long time.
Johnny B. Truant [00:27:47]:
Yeah, it's. But to me, that's one more example of just what would I do as a, as a human. Well, here's kind of a paradigm thing. So the, the, the way I think of my true fans or people who are on their way to being true fans or people who reach out to me to, to talk to me via email or whatever, I think of them as friends or friends in Potentia. And that maybe sounds a little hokey. Like, it sounds like, oh, you can't possibly believe that. Well, I kind of do, but I also kind of. It's a mental shift where how would I respond to somebody in a friendly, like a friend like way rather than even a good customer way? Like, that's different.
Johnny B. Truant [00:28:23]:
And if, like, a friend was like, hey, can I get some of those books from you? Or whatever, I'd be like, yeah, sure. I guess I got nothing going on. And. Or if somebody sent me an email about something, something that wasn't even strictly book related, and they're a friend of mine, then I would play back with them. So that's kind of the filter that I run everything through. So, yes, several times there were, there were people who were like, hey, I'm going to go. One person wanted to go to Book People, which is this iconic Austin bookstore where I have a few books in, in, in, in, like, available on the shelves. And that came from artists and author stuff too.
Johnny B. Truant [00:28:59]:
Like, I had to do things that were very different from what I would do on Kindle Unlimited to get those in there. And then I had made an offer that, like, hey, I'll come down, you know, have a coffee with you and sign the book if you go buy something there, because I want book people to like me. And then there were some other people who just a guy had bought one book at like, this, this little like art artisan fair or something, like a little craft market or something. And in like, like three or four months ago. And then he said, oh, man, I really loved that book. I told my friend about it and he read it and he loved it. Can we come down and meet you somewhere and just buy books, like out of the back of the. We called it like a, it was like a drug deal.
Johnny B. Truant [00:29:40]:
Hey, you want some books? So, but, but that. And they bought. Between the two of them, they bought 19 books. And it was like a $400 sale. And so I was like, yeah, of course I'm gonna go down for that. Yeah, of course. Like, that's, that's cool. That's what I'm trying to do.
Johnny B. Truant [00:29:53]:
I'm not trying to get a bunch of faceless readers, which I will take them and you will get them. If you're trying to focus on true fans, you will get people who don't care to know you or interact with you at all. And maybe we'll only read one book, but those people happen accidentally when you focus on like, what do my true fans want? And I'm just trying to get as many of those people as possible. But it's such a small group. And I like that. It's not like, oh, I need to have a billion downloads or whatever. It's like if I have a thousand people who really love me, that's not a lot of people in the grand scheme of things. And yes, it takes time, but that's what you're trying to build.
Johnny B. Truant [00:30:30]:
That's the paradigm shift.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:30:31]:
Right? And I think the other thing, and this leads to long term, this leads to longevity. And I know that's a concern of Kevin Anderson who wrote the forward for the book, is you gave those fans an experience that they're probably gonna. Well, and you know how I got this book, actually met up with Johnny at this parking lot. We had a great conversation, etc. But so I want to use an example here. This is a live example from the comments that I've been paying attention to. So you mentioned having your book in book people.
Johnny B. Truant [00:31:05]:
Yeah.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:31:06]:
Now draft to digital print. Books that are available in draft Digital print are available through Ingram, the world's largest English language wholesaler of books. That means any bookstore in the world can get these books. Guillaume, I'm talking to you, my friend. So Guillaume, who's in Canada, like me, was saying, well, who. Who do you market your books to in Canada? Well, drafted digital doesn't market print books in any country. They make them available. How, Johnny, how did you get book people to carry your book? Did draft two Digital market your books to book people for you?
Johnny B. Truant [00:31:38]:
Am I supposed to say yes?
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:31:40]:
No, no, no, I didn't do any work for you?
Johnny B. Truant [00:31:44]:
No, no, they did not. But I do hear they're very capable at that.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:31:47]:
Well, no, we do. We do a lot of ebook marketing with our partners like Kobo and Apple and Overdrive and stuff like that. So we do. Megan does that. That's her full time job, is marketing your Books, ebooks to our ebook partners. But how did you get these print books? How did you get book people to pick up your books?
Johnny B. Truant [00:32:04]:
So there were two. Okay, so I'm just. Let me answer that question. But, but we should probably talk about, like, the. There's a, There's a. Just a huge mental shift that happens. And once you start thinking, you stop thinking about I need to murder the world with scale, and you start thinking I'm one person who's, who's an artist who's going to make this work, and you just think with it along those lines. Then a whole range of possibilities open up that you'd been dismissing as too small or not worth my time.
Johnny B. Truant [00:32:33]:
And you start to realize, no, no, they're not only not, not worth my time, they are the essence of what I need to be doing. So the story is that there are basically two ways to get a book into a bookstore. Feels like the punchline of a joke. How do you. How do you get. How do you get a book? Right? So. And you probably know a ton more because you've been around the, the horn on this. But for me, I.
Johnny B. Truant [00:32:56]:
There are two basic ways. And, and one is for them to get them to order your book through digital print or, you know, through wherever. And they'll order it through any. Or through Ingram or, you know, they'll not. They won't order through Amazon. They just won't do that. But they, they will stock your books. And that's where you get.
Johnny B. Truant [00:33:14]:
Depending on, depending on your pricing, they're getting a really steep discount. You get a few bucks a book. And that's great. Like, it's great because you're available everywhere. So I got them to stock. I think just Fat Vampire was the only one that they actually went for.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:33:26]:
And that maybe because of the TV series, that was sort of like a.
Johnny B. Truant [00:33:30]:
Little more of a slam dunk.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:33:31]:
But you went in to talk to them.
Johnny B. Truant [00:33:34]:
Well, that's the other way is consignment and. But yes, that's the way I got them to order that book is I did go in and talk to them. But, you know, the local author angle, again, like, people pass over this because they're like, well, I can't focus on local. I need to murder the world with my books. Not if you only need a thousand true fans. You don't. You can focus on local because every individual connection you make is so much more valuable in this way of thinking than it is in, like a rapid release way of thinking. So I went in, spent my time, my Non leverageable, one on one human time.
Johnny B. Truant [00:34:05]:
And I talk to people and I got the name of the consignment manager. And so my most successful books at Book People are on consignment, which means that they will take the books and if they don't sell, they can give them back to you. Which, by the way, is the way it works with Ingram or Drafted Digital or anybody too, is they can always return them, but you probably, you aren't going to make as much money and they may destroy them. If, you know, if you said it that way or they, they come back banged up, I would just walk in, you know, hey, Johnny, we have, you know, more copies and we're ready to end your consignment. They keep extending my consignment because mine sell. But that basically means, like, I take books in, I sign them for them. I said, hey, do you want me to sign them? I said, oh, yes. That makes them more valuable if you sign them.
Johnny B. Truant [00:34:47]:
Right. And they, they have unicorn, Western, pretty killer. And the big. I have a huge fat vampire omnibus. And they take those on consignment and sell them. And I get a percentage. And so every once in a while I get a check in the mail from book people. But it happened just going in and talking to people.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:35:03]:
So that's the lesson. And I saw Guillaume, my apologies. I keep forgetting for some reason I like you so much, Guillaume. I think you're probably a Canadian like me, but you're in the uk. It's Commonwealth. We're cousins. So you're in the uk. The books drafted digital print books are available through Ingram.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:35:19]:
And Ingram is the world's largest wholesaler. So to Guillaume and anyone, customers who want to order your books can go in and special order them from virtually any bookstore. Be willing to order them in for a customer or if you have, you know, go into your local bookstore, make or have a relationship with them or, hey, I'm a local author. This is what I write now. I know Guillaume writes erotic comedy. So if you go into a science fiction store and you try to get them to bring in your erotic comedy, that's probably not going to work. Right. You know, it has to potentially be a store that, that's something that they carry as well.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:35:51]:
Right. Because book people carries a variety of genres, right?
Johnny B. Truant [00:35:54]:
Yeah, they're like, they're. They cover the breadth that Barnes and Noble covers.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:35:58]:
Yeah, it's like all of the. They have a bit of everything in the store. But if you go into like a mystery shop that only carries mysteries, well, they're not going to carry unicorn, western or fat vampire. Right? So. All right, question from Darren from Live. We're gearing off of artist and author, but Darren says you've written over 100 books. How long, Johnny, have you been writing?
Johnny B. Truant [00:36:20]:
For 13ish years. Full, like, as a, as a profession. Like, seriously. And it's true that I have over 100 books. And so usually at this point, people go, well, the artist and author thing is supposed to be about slowing down. And the other thing we get, and I know that you teased this early Mark, when we, before we got in the air, was like, aren't you the author of Write, Publish, Repeat? And I am. But the difference is that there's a difference between publishing rapidly or writing, you know, releasing rapidly, which is what I did, and rapid release. Capital R.
Johnny B. Truant [00:36:51]:
Capital R. The latter relies on an algorithmic sweet spot. You're trying to write books that Amazon knows exactly what to do with, and they want it recent. They want something within the last, say, 30 days, and they know exactly who to sell them to. And that's why we end up writing for algorithms, which means, like, none of my books would fit into an algorithm. I have a few that I could shoehorn in if I was a little deceptive about the twists and turns that they took and make them sound really mainstream. I could do that. But it's rare, and you need to do it pretty quickly.
Johnny B. Truant [00:37:26]:
But the. You can. The speed is irrelevant when you're an artist and author, with one exception, and that's that people with more books do tend to sell more books. That's just the way math works. And that was the original point of Write, Publish, Repeat. It wasn't go as fast as you can. All their considerations don't matter. It was keep going, be persistent, and build a catalog.
Johnny B. Truant [00:37:48]:
And so since I wrote most stuff in collaboration with Sean Platt and we had a highly energetic collaboration, and because my flow is better, I write better when I write fast. We wrote a lot of books together and we wrote them quickly and we published them quickly. But we don't need to do that in order to succeed as an artist and author. I could have one book and sell it. As an artist and author, you have one book and you throw it into, like, the rapid release methodology. Just do an ebook on Amazon, nothing else. Well, have fun. Because that book, you just threw that book away.
Johnny B. Truant [00:38:19]:
And that's what I think a lot of people are kind of quietly being advised to do. Oh, you got one. Throw it into Kindle Unlimited. Right. Another. Well, okay. See you later.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:38:27]:
Yeah, that is so, so fascinating. Now we mentioned earlier, retease it. So you've got the book, the Artisan Author, that is still sort of. It's mostly done probably little tweaks and developmental things because the book is coming out November. But right now, as of the middle of July, 2025, people who are interested can get access to it early, right?
Johnny B. Truant [00:38:50]:
Yeah. So I did a Kickstarter for it. It's at johnnybtrunt.com artisan it's live right now through August, I think August 14th. And the reason that I did that was because, number one, I've kind of come to love Kickstarter. It's very Artisan in flavor. Like it's kind of a true fan platform. And you can. It's people who want the extra, that want the connection, that want the story behind the story, that want to support artists in some way or creators in some way.
Johnny B. Truant [00:39:22]:
And it also let me do this whole, like, I used to do a lot of teaching, a lot of author facing stuff. And I realized I missed it and I did. This whole thing is a long story, but about a year ago I was like, man, I wonder if I could like teach at a college. And I looked into it and it was, it was not easy because I don't have an MFA or anything like that. And then come full circle, I'm like, what if I did like a college type course and we use the Artist and author book as the textbook of that course and we taught it like a course and it was over 10 weeks and we met twice a week and we had lecture and discussion sessions and so I built that into it too. And obviously that's not something I could do with a normal book release, but it is something I can offer on Kickstarter.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:40:06]:
I love that. So let's talk a little bit more about that. So people are interested in like, I really love this approach. And there were a couple comments that came up, I think associated to that. Jim, who is, you know. Oh yes, I know Jim supposed to have the hour off, but it's still working as usual. You know, positioning is super important. You can't be all things to all people.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:40:27]:
Right. Which is good. And then even Beth said, when I first heard Joe Penn talking about the AI assisted Artisan author, I knew I liked the idea of being artisan. And so she says, thanks, Johnny. So people who are intrigued in the university and the idea of like, oh, wait, it's not just a book I can read on my own. I can it like the guys you met up with. Yeah, I can interact with this guy and we can have a dynamic conversation that, like, that's part of that. Part of the, of that artisan.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:40:56]:
Is it called Artisan?
Johnny B. Truant [00:40:57]:
You know, I call it Artisan University. Yeah. I was actually wondering, like, do I have to run a file? Like, I'm not accredited to give you. You know, but no, no, there are.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:41:05]:
People who can call anything a university whether or not it succeeds or not. Yes.
Johnny B. Truant [00:41:09]:
But it, it. Because I talked to Sean Platt again yesterday, my, you know, my co host of the self publishing podcast. It was so fun. And we were talking about the fun and so that's part of it too. Is like, is. Is like I can. We can have fun together. You know, some.
Johnny B. Truant [00:41:23]:
I've had some great college classes and they were, they were, they were just, they were just so much fun. And there was that energy in early self publishing where we were all in this together. And so I think that's what I really like about it is the idea that, I mean, I'm, I'm doing it selfishly because I want to do this right. Like, I want to have artists in university. I want to teach something my own way, which is very, very different from the way most online classes are done. So, yeah, it'll. It's going to be fun. It's going to be cool.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:41:52]:
Oh, that is awesome. So again, so people can find that if they go to johnnybtruant.com artisan so right now it's linking to the Kickstarter so they can check it out. Want to get early access to the ebook and I think I signed up to get a signed copy of the hardcover. I'm so excited about that.
Johnny B. Truant [00:42:09]:
Oh, really?
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:42:11]:
But then access to other resources for writers as well, which I think are really cool. Like some stuff that you and Sean had done together too, right?
Johnny B. Truant [00:42:18]:
Well, those were the early bonuses. We probably shouldn't mention those because they're not.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:42:21]:
Oh, my God. Sorry. Those are the only. The people who got in on day one.
Johnny B. Truant [00:42:24]:
On day one. Yeah. But I mean, I'll add, you know, I'm going to add some, some stretch goals and stuff. But yeah, I see it as a continuum of education from like, all you want to do is read the book. Cool. Just do that. Just read the book and you. That's cool.
Johnny B. Truant [00:42:35]:
Or you can go all the way in and it's all the way up to like one on one with me for a month for the crazy people.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:42:42]:
So when. When I had chatted with you in an earlier conversation. And folks who want to check out Johnny, go to johnnybtruit.com as well, just to check out all the awesomeness there. But regardless of whether or not somebody picks up the Artisan Author book, what's some advice that you just want people who are listening to this conversation to walk away with some powerful, impactful message that you can share with.
Johnny B. Truant [00:43:06]:
To stand up tall like you're, you're a creator. I find it, I find it sad and sometimes I find it insulting that, that so many authors just feel that they have to just accept whatever they're given. And that means, well, you got to write what we tell you to write. And we tell you is like the whale readers who only read the same thing every time or the Amazon algorithms and just like kind of like, you know, have your back straight and be like, I'm gonna do what I'm going to do. I'm an artist. And that the art and craft minded people, I just think that there's a lot of pride there. I mean we didn't even get into pricing, but like I price at the top end of the spectrum, the reasonable spectrum as well. Because it's just kind of like, you know, I worked hard on this.
Johnny B. Truant [00:43:49]:
Dang it. I deserv deserve it. And I think that I wish we. So I would say, you know, be proud of yourself. Have, have some backbone as a writer.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:43:56]:
Awesome. Stand up tall. 86 wave said as well. Awesome. Appreciate that. Johnny, thanks for hanging out with me today. Please stick around to be in the, in the green room now. Thank you guys so much for listening and watching.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:44:13]:
Thanks to Lexi and Elyssa and Jim for answering the questions in the comments that didn't have anything to do with Johnny about ISBNs and publishing and stuff like that. Really love that. Appreciate that. Amazing supportive community. Be sure we do these interviews every week. Be sure to like share, comment, subscribe, don't you know, or bookmark D2Dlive.com so you don't miss out on these weekly interviews. Now the much better looking, much better spoken, much less follically challenged. Jim Acevedo is your regular host for this show.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:44:46]:
But you can always check out all the great interviews that Jim does every weekend here and our backlist over at YouTube.com draft2digital. But you can, if you have not self published, you can check out the ebook and print book options we have at draft2digital.com very cool. And that is it for this interview. Again, Johnny, thank you so much for your wisdom and wit today.
Johnny B. Truant [00:45:08]:
Oh well, thank you for having me on. And I am amazed at how you nailed 45 minutes.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre [00:45:13]:
Like to the second right to a T. Bye everyone.
Johnny B. Truant [00:45:19]:
Bye.
Kevin Tumlinson [00:45:20]:
Ebooks are great, but there's just something about having your words in print. Something you can hold in your hands, put on a shelf, sign for a reader. That's why we created D2D Print, a print on demand service that was built for you. We have free, beautiful templates to give your book a pro look, and we can even convert your ebook cover into a full wraparound cover for print. So many options for you and your books and you can get started right now at draft2digital.com that's it for this week's Self Publishing Insiders with Draft2Digital. Be sure to subscribe to us wherever you listen to podcasts and share the show with your will be author friends and start build and grow your own self publishing career right now at draft2digital.com.